Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Under no circumstances do you not pay your HOA dues. It's just like paying your rent. You can say that the landlord didn't fix the sink legally for that purpose. It does not matter now. You can bring it up later. But pay your rent, pay your HOA dues because there's interest, there's late fees, Then when they bring in the attorney to finalize the collections, then if you owe $1,000 by the end of a case, you could end up owing 6,000 dol.
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good night, everybody. Welcome back to Trust this with Joe Siegel. I am a real estate asset protection attorney here in Florida. And today we're going to have one of our Tips and Tactics Strategies series podcast. We're going to be talking with Jefferson Davis, Jeff Davis out of Winter Park, Florida. Been practicing since 2008. His practice focuses a lot on homeowners associations, law associated with that, as well as title, cleaning up title with litigation, probate and business law. And also does some closings here and there. So today I'd like to welcome Jeff Davis. Welcome, Jeff, to the program. How are you today?
[00:01:29] Speaker A: Doing great. Good to see you again.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: So you're a third generation Central Floridian. That's, that's rare for anybody who's been here more than you know who was born here. What's it been like? What are the changes you've seen in Central Florida? Has it gotten better or gotten worse since you've been around?
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Well, I think kind of like the country that there are certain things that have gotten better and certain things have gotten worse. But my grandfather came down here. I don't even know when, but he was the first oral surgeon in Central Florida. And my dad followed suit and I did not. Chemistry was not my friend. So I decided to become a lawyer. And Central Florida has changed a lot. As far as you know, we've had the expansion, we've got Disney, we've got all this growth. There are periods that Central Florida hits the way the country hits, with ups and downs, highs and lows, but I think we get it a little bit less. And I think that, you know, people know that Central Florida is growing and it's not going to stop until we lose the ability to have enough land to make it grow.
I think it will continue growing well.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: And that's one of the things that we've seen. We've seen. I met a guy when I was first moving to Florida, taking the bar in 2001, and his family owned groves, tons and tons of orange groves and they, he talked about that the family was sending him to law school and to become a lawyer because now instead of planting oranges, they were planting Yankees. They were moving people in and building houses all over their groves. And part of that growth has been that we've seen an explosion of homeowners associations over time. So could you explain, you know, what are the legal responsibilities of a, of a homeowners association, of an hoa, and, and how do they affect that relationship with the homeowners in the, in their neighborhoods?
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Well, I mean, you know, just to begin with, the homeowners associations, it's a, you know, a statutory creation, and it's entirely different. If you're buying a house in a regular neighborhood that doesn't have an hoa, you are buying an entirely different house than the exact same house in an hoa. The responsibilities of the homeowner. The responsibility of the hoa. The HOA is a. Basically a board, and they are created to legally enforce the rules and regulations which are outlined in their governing documents. Governing documents basically state, in short, what you can and can't do. And that includes maintenance and upkeep of parcels and common areas.
These are the responsibilities of the HOA board, which are elected by the members, meaning members being the homeowners of the association. So the board is there to legally enforce those governing documents. Again, managing finances, architectural guidelines, standards for landscaping, pet policies, resolving disputes with homeowners, collections of dues to back up. Obviously, in a hoa, you pay dues monthly for them to do those things, such as maintaining the roads, the common areas, as they call them, and such as sidewalks, the grass before your property. And basically they're there to ensure the overall quality of life in the community.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: And you hope that they also keep the values up by keeping the properties looking nice and keeping the amenities looking nice. But sometimes they don't.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: That is definitely. Well, that's part of what I said with the maintenance. Maintenance of the trees around the property, the pool, the common area pool, so that it's not green some. And, and it varies from HOA to hoa, whether they're responsible for the paint on the outside of your house or the replacement of the roof. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Again, specifically written into the governing documents or declaration, as it's sometimes referred to.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: So what. What's some of the most common legal friction, the problems between the HoA and the owners or between the owners themselves that the HOA may have to jump into to as. To deal with it? What are some of those most Common things that you see well with the.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: Homeowners versus the board of the association, or we'll just call it the hoa. They're the things that I just mentioned. They're disputes in how much they owe. Disputes on architectural violations, meaning say they've made a renovation and they didn't ask the right way. Pet disputes. Can I have a pit bull? Failure to maintain common areas. This would be the homeowner saying that the HOA isn't doing their job. There's discrimination issues, improper financial management, parking issues, personal injury lawsuits. If somebody falls on the sidewalk, they might sue the hoa. Basically any situation where a homeowner feels the HOA is not following the rules or vice versa, where the HOA feels like the homeowner is not following the rules, or if the HOA is unfairly enforcing it against them. As far as Homeowner to homeowner, HOAs try to stay out of those matters. But oftentimes there are certain things where they have to get involved even if they aren't responsible. Sometimes insurance is involved, so and so has a leak that leads onto somebody else's property or somebody's dog gets out and bites another member. Usually those are not heavily involved with the hoa, unless they've done something that would lead to the dog bite or something. You know, say they, they weren't enforcing the policy that Dobermans or dogs over 50 pounds aren't there. If they're not enforcing that policy, then the HOA could get, be liable.
[00:07:58] Speaker B: So that sort of takes me to my next thing is what should hoas be doing to number one, make sure they're enforcing their rules well and to avoid them, I guess. What's the relation policy that most HOAs should have? You know, where should they start and then the next steps up before they ever get the litigation over it.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: Well, there's, there's preparation that, that they should be doing. There's steps to, to slow down any kind of backlash. And it comes in two ways. There's, there's open communication, active listening with the membership. There's creating guidelines, including the documents and the rules and regulations that are easy to understand, that are transparent, that are fair. These are words that I'm going to continually repeat. Open, clear, transparent, fair. And it works both ways.
You know, taking regular feedback. One of the number one complaints that I get from a homeowner is they never told me. It doesn't matter what it was, they never told me. And whether that's true or not, it's the perception of that Homeowner. Is it the perception of all those homeowners? I don't know. But basically, if they just are seemingly open, open to that free flow of communication. Where these things go wrong is aggressive enforcement by the hoas and aggressive response from the homeowners. That's where these things go. I've seen time and time again where matters will end up being disputed over a few hundred dollars and it goes to court. And, you know, one person wins, but then the other person has to pay thousands of attorneys fees. We're talking about $100 here. To back up to what you were saying, HOAs have to have a fining committee. It has to be appointed by the board. And you can't fine a member or homeowner. You cannot find them without a finding committee. And there are many, many HOAs that are doing this, and people don't know that that's not the proper process reasons for doing that. They may not have enough people to be on a finding committee. Finding volunteers is not always easy in this climate that we're in. But a warning letter, maybe even if, you know, you have a smaller community and you have the bandwidth to do it, a phone call, just, hey, your dog. You need to pick up your dog's stuff, because it's that simple. And then the next thing you know, they got $100 fine, and then they don't pay it, and then it's another $100, and then the next thing you know, it's $1,000. And that's not fair on either side. But the HOA has to be fair and consistent.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's one of the things I hear a lot of times is they go, a homeowner says, well, they didn't, you know, tell them down the street that they couldn't paint their house without going through the architectural review. So why do I now have to go through architectural review before I paint my house? And I hear that a lot of times with a lot that they. They just didn't enforce the rules consistently across the board.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Consistent and fair.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, what kind of strategies would you recommend for hoas to stay organized to make sure they're. I mean, you mentioned the finding committee and the hearings and the notices and everything. What should they do to make sure that they're staying compliant with all these statutes that guide exactly what they're supposed to be doing and when they're supposed to be doing it?
[00:11:48] Speaker A: They're a great attorney. But seriously, it is important having, if you're HOA or condominium association, if they can afford it. I would recommend a management company for every one of them out there. They can help you with the basics of keeping you on task, telling you what you need to do. Financial reporting stuff, which is obviously huge nowadays. There's just so many things that it is really hard. Even if, even if I was on a board and you know, I've been doing this for umpteen years, even if I was on a board for an hoa, I would want an attorney there especially I would want an attorney there because I know how much there is going on and it's constantly changing. So you have that management company as a base. They are great with accounting, which is critical for collecting on unpaid dues. You've got so much that they, that they do they the homeowners on day to day basis and then you bring in your attorney, you can either have them on retainer, you can pay them hourly, whatever it might be. You got to be able to pick up the phone or send an email to your attorney and say, look, can we do this or can we not do this? It's huge. That is the number one way to stay in compliance. The management company keeps you organized, the attorney keeps you in compliance.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: Good.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: And if you can't afford those things, there is a lot of good stuff online. As with any subject today, there's a lot of bad stuff online, a lot of. But there's some official websites, cai that can really nail down some topics for you and at least give you guidance and may say, hey, I read this article, I think we're good, let's not contact the attorney. But you know, I recommend of course against that.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Well, a lot of times, I mean what we hear and we see this with the legislation that there's a big, there's always a swing, a pendulum swing that'll go give a swing for a while, give the boards more power, then they swing back and give the owners more power. And it seems like lately the latest round of legislative changes were to give to take power back to the owners to some extent over the years. I mean you've seen this pendulum swing back and forth. How does the board, the hoa balance its duties to maintain the requirements under the declaration and the rules and regulations? How do they weigh that? How do they balance that against Also, you know, these, these property owners, they bought this property and they have a right to use it. Well, how do you handle that tug of war that's constantly going on there?
[00:14:50] Speaker A: I'm sorry, say again about the homeowners portion of it.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: So, so so homeowners also have a, you know, they own the property and they have to use their property. So how do you handle that tug of war between the. The HOA's requirements to maintain the integrity of the association and versus the homeowners? You know, rights of property ownership, the.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Homeowner'S rights are absolute.
And what's written in that declaration is what it is what it is. And if you're going to take the job, if you're going to accept the position as a board member, as a leader of basically your neighborhood, it's no different than being, you know, CEO of a company or president of a small business. It's. You have a responsibility, they have a responsibility.
Say it's a CEO to the shareholders. It's an entire group. It's a group mentality, you know, to back up a little. HOA is. Is similar to a society, a Democrat. It's not a democratic society. Now, we do have votes, but it is based upon the community. The best for the community is the best for the individual. I know that is counterintuitive to American democracy. No, not even democracy, but our, you know, financial.
You know what I'm trying to say?
[00:16:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: And, you know, so it, it comes down to that. Those presidents, those board members, they are at risk of being sued, of being, you know, sent to the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, and for what? They're not making any money. They are volunteering. So, you know, you got to take that into account as a homeowner. But it's a balance. And I believe that the. The board has to follow the rules. Problems that we're talking about, the things that you keep saying, how can we avoid this? How can we. It's about how you treat people. It's about how the homeowner treats the board. It's about how the board treats the homeowner. And that can be with their policies, their procedures, or just how they talk to people in person, on the phone, via email. I've seen both sides of this. I've represented many homeowners and many associations, and I've seen it go both ways where. And I've been on the side of the person that probably should have kept his mouth shut. And I've been on the side of the board that just says, these are our rules. We're not bending. This is, you know, and there's got to be flexibility.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: It sounds to me like flexibility and respect on both sides, just very much respect is.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: Is, you know, it's the number one thing that I hear is oh, well, this person, they just treat me like dirt. And they're not. They're not responding and they're not. And sometimes it's, you know, 75 true. But most of the time it, it lines up.
Of course. I mean, you know, everybody knows that there's two sides to, or three sides to every story, you know, side, the homeowner side and then the truth.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Right, and that's true in any type of law we practice absolutely.
Well. So they can, you know, the homeowners can get together and decide to, to amend or, or renew those declarations and rules and regulations. What are some of the legal things that they need to be very careful of and maybe some of the things that they'd want to watch out for as they are updating or amending their declarations. Because I hear this a lot of very old associations needing to refres their, their declarations and, and renew them. Are there any particular things out there that an HOA should think about? Whenever they are doing that, they have.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: To do it within 30 years. So once you're operating after that 30 year period, you are operating in a very dangerous, basically as a voluntary association, meaning you charge the dues and they don't pay it. Good luck collecting it. You will not be able to collect it. Now you can rejuvenate, you can extend. Those are very simple procedures for an experienced attorney for an association that, say, can't afford an attorney or wants to just do it on their own. There are guidelines again online and you can find fairly detailed ones. But it is a step by step process. It does involve the government, it does involve getting signatures within your community. There's steps and they're very detailed and tedious. I don't want to bore your audience, but again, and I would say let an attorney do it for you, it's worth it. Because you lose one year of revenue in an HOA and you could be ending up into a receivership or bankruptcy situation.
And all of a sudden you have no HOA or you have a random receiver appointed that you don't know what their agenda is, making rules unilaterally that they are allowed to make. And then you've gone from social society to a dictatorship and no one that owns a piece of property wants to go there.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I've seen associations fall into receivership and bankruptcy and it's just this endless downward spiral that I've never seen an association or neighborhood come back. Most of them are eventually condemned by the city or the county or they're converted or they're converted to apartments. If you can find anyone who will buy the whole thing, do that. It's. Yeah, it's. It's ugly. It's very, very ugly.
[00:20:53] Speaker A: What can lead, what can lead to that is this back and forth with the homeowners and the HOAs, and, you know, you get one big lawsuit and the HOA loses, or many different things can happen and no one wants to be on the board. Well, if no one wants to be on the board, then you're into a receivership, receivership situation.
If there's no money, then you're bankruptcy. And then again, you've got somebody coming in that, in theory, doesn't have your best interest in heart. So, you know, maybe you don't personally like, you know, Joe Smith, not Joe Siegel, that's, you know, running your. It's president of your hoa. But you kind of gotta think big picture when you go after, especially the higher value, you know, lands properties.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, no, we. I've seen them, the receiver come in and just fill the pools. Destroy the pools and just fill them with dirt. You know, bulldoze the tennis courts because they're like, these are liabilities that we can't afford anymore. So they're just gone. And they have, that, they have that power, you know, to do that kind of thing. So while you may have been mad at that poor, you know, that, that neighbor who was volunteering and ran them away, you've got. Yeah, you got your dictator in there whose only job is to save money as much as possible and collect as much as possible, and otherwise it runs it into the ground, literally.
[00:22:21] Speaker A: And then you're dealing with. You're. You're basically dealing with a robot. And so there isn't that communication, the things that I've been talking about.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: Right, right.
So can you, can you share a case study or an example of a time where maybe an association and a. And an owner have sort of gotten into it, but then they navigated through the legal process and work things out without having to go to court.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Oh, without having to go to court. I think this is. It's a funny question, to be honest with you, because I don't know what successful means.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: I would say successful is everybody walked out and no one was completely happy. That, to me, is a successful mediated agreement.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: I've definitely used that phrase many times. Well, then, yes, almost every single one. But no one's ever happy if, If I can mediate those kind of things as the HOA attorney. Like, yeah, I take pride in that. I think that just making each other, each side understand where the other one is coming from. In a, you know, you can take the, the God awful email that the homeowner sent you and the even worse response from the hoa. And it's in me like they didn't send it to the hoa, they didn't send it to the homeowner, they sent it to me, therefore I can take it and, and turn it nice is kind of one of the things that I preach. It's like, let's just, let's be nice until it's time to not be nice. And so I try to massage the situation from each side and, and try and make it so that, that there's, is there a way we can meet in the middle or, you know, slightly to either, either side. And I think if you can take it out of the hands of them communicating to each other before it gets out of hand, then you stand a chance. But once personal feelings get involved, sometimes people will ignore the fact that they have the potential of losing a lot of money and maybe even other things, maybe even their property, maybe even someone will invalidate the language of the declaration. It could be, you know, there's repercussions in these situations that boards and homeowners do not consider. And that's, you know, what we do. And, and a lot of times management companies, if they have a great, a property manager, they can resolve these things without it even getting to me.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: Well, and I think that thing, the, the managers and the lawyers can take the emotion out of that communication and get it down to brass tacks. But I think one of the biggest things that, you know, we always have as, as lawyers is to also point out to the other side as well as our own clients of. Well, this is the losing part of your argument. This is where you think it's a slam dunk. It's not a slam dunk or it'll be a slam dunk, but it's going to cost us this much to prove it. So it's going to be a Pyrrhic victory even if we win, because you're going to lose so much money in either experts or depositions or hearings or just my time before we get to that point. Yeah, you, you proved a point, but you spent the entire budget, the association for a year to prove that point.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: I think that's part of our role also the management company's role is to take that emotion out and try to get them down to. Yeah, but here's the reality of this.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: And it is hard. And you, you have to manage egos on both sides. You have to, you know, just, you can't be condescending. But a lot of times you, you almost have to, like, when you take the emotion out, it may, may come across that way, be like, look, have you considered that? Well, of course I've considered that. You know, yes, but have you considered this? And let's wipe, let's, let's start from, from scratch. Let's, let's, let's eliminate the emotion now. Think about it. So it's, you know, it, it's a, it's a massaging.
There's real, very real emotion involved in these, especially with the homeowners, because a lot of them, they may not even understand that they bought into the hoa. It's like I explained before, you know, it's very different.
I mean, and to be honest with you, before I became an HOA attorney, I would have maybe bought into an HOA without even knowing that I bought into an hoa. And so I think there's. What, who are these people? Why are they asking me for money every month? What are they doing? I don't understand it. It's, I mean, it's. You're just buying a piece of property. The HOA doesn't show up at your door, you know, with a welcome wagon and say, you know, here's what we do. Here's what you, you know, here's what you bought into. Here's what you're going to get. And, you know, maybe if they did or maybe if they had time to do that, you know, some of These properties are 5, 600 units. If they had time to do that, then maybe some of these problems would, would not occur. But I think that there's just a. The HOA expects everyone to understand the homeowner may not.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Right.
Well, and I think the first time some people realize they've moved into an HOA is when people go, well, I'm going to change. I'm going to put a new roof on the house. And the roofers show up and the next door neighbor comes over and says, did you, did you get approval for that shingle, you know, or did you get approval for that paint that you're getting ready to paint the house? That's when people first go, well, no, of course not. Why would I do it?
[00:28:08] Speaker A: Or it could be as simple as, you know, they put their garbage can on the wrong side of the street or they hung up a gator flag.
[00:28:16] Speaker B: Yep, yep, yep. Or they painted their house the Gator colors. I've had that case before. Which brings me to my next, which brings me to my next question. So what do you do? I mean, what would you advise a homeowner to do if they feel like their association has gone too far or, or isn't enforcing the rules like they're supposed to do?
[00:28:38] Speaker A: Well, again, I think there's valuable online resources and, and I think people ought, I mean, you know, there's, there's good information, there's bad information, we all know that. But I think there is some value in kind of educating yourself a little bit, maybe seeing, hey, if I'm in an HOA and I do this, it's just a problem. You, you might answer your question and be like, I was mad about this, but I guess I was wrong. But again, it comes down to seeking legal counsel to back up with the online research. You might find that you can submit a complaint to the department of the, what we call the dbpr, the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, which, which governs some of the, the dealings of the property management companies and anyone with a license and that, that can kind of get you in it. They also govern condominium associations and elections and, and stuff like that. There's tools that you can use without resorting to hiring an attorney. A lot of attorneys like myself, we'll do a free consultation. It doesn't hurt to pick up the phone and ask your question and see if you get your answer. I mean, I, I don't know any other way. You know, I, I feel like talking to your neighbors could get you a little riled up, maybe even get them riled up. So I, I don't know if I'd recommend that.
You've got, you, you've got to find someone in the area of HOA and condominium law, which is very nuanced, especially in the state of Florida, that understands these matters.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think Florida is only second probably to California and the complexity of our HOA statutes. And it seems like, yeah, every year they add to them or they take away from, like I was saying earlier, what, what are some of the challenges or changes that you think will probably come down over the next year, a few years for HOAs in Florida mainly.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: I mean, it's very hard to predict because, you know, you're dealing with market outside of just our little world.
But special assessments has become a hot, hot button issue with reserve studies and basically exposure of some associations not setting aside money to replace roofs or just not doing things properly or just skyrocketing costs, special assessments have become a big time issue to the point where I've seen probably a record number of sales in the last six to eight months. Because if they are in collections and foreclosure, it's the amount of money that say they haven't paid or whatever. It's just they can't afford it. And so instead of trying to enter into a payment plan, the amount of money is significant. I can't stress enough as advice to a homeowner. Under no circumstances do you not pay your HOA dues. It's just like paying your rent. You can say that the landlord didn't fix the sink legally for that purpose. It does not matter. You can bring it up later. But pay your rent, pay your HOA dues because there's interest, there's late fees, then there's. Then when they bring in the attorney to finalize the collections, then you know, if you owe a thousand dollars by the end of a case, if you don't deal with it, you could end up owing $6,000. A lot of that's attorneys fees and costs and it, it, you've got to pay your dues. So we've seen with these special assessments that people are just like, you know, they, they're not going to do it and so they end up just selling, which is, it's good for the associations in one respect, but it's bringing in a lot of investors, which we saw right before the big crash. Investors were everywhere and then they got crushed by this and so they stayed those that could afford to and ended up running the community. And in some situations I've seen an investor, he really cares, he wants that community to succeed because he owns 30 units. So he's going to do everything he can to make it better. But in other situations they're absentee and your deal, you can't get them out of office, they've got too many votes, you can't change anything. And it becomes again another dictatorship type situation.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: So I'm hoping that there's a little bit more of a market correction that will benefit these associations in being or benefit the homeowners so that they're able to pay, so that these special assessments are not debilitating. But I can speak personally that I have seen them be debilitating.
[00:33:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm hearing that a lot from a lot of folks that the special assessments for deferred repairs, deferred reserves that they just didn't collect for years and all of a sudden they, they're having to collect It. And also insurance is just going through the roof and all that is just going very expensive, and they just don't have the money. So they're doing these special assessments. And I'm, I'm hearing that very often that a lot of people are just walking away and saying, fine, sell it. Because the special assessments are hundreds of thousands of dollars. And you pointed out attorneys fees. I think it's important to note that there's no limit. I mean, the attorney's fees have to be reasonable. But it's not unusual to see thousands and thousands of dollars worth of attorney's fees on top. Because these are pretty complicated cases that take a while to get through the courts. And so, yeah, they're going to be. That's one of the biggest calls I get is, well, how dare, you know, they're charging $5,000 or, or even $3,000 to collect $1,000 assessment. I'm going, well, but that's what it costs. You know, I'm sorry.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: It doesn't matter if you, if you owe 100,000 or if you owe a thousand.
My charges are the same. And it's certainly my costs are the same. Right. And it's, you know. Yeah. I don't. It's. It's not wonderful, but, you know, we're running a business here, too.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And it is what it is. I, I get that all the time. Back when I did closings, that was the biggest objection I got from people sellers saying, well, how dare they char. How can they charge $3,000 to collect a 200 investment? And I said, well, they should have paid the 200 because 3,000 is pretty much it. That's attorney's fees and costs and everything else to push this thing through. So it's not unusual. It's not unusual at all. But I want to thank you. We need to wrap it up today. Jeff, I want to thank you for coming in. But before we go, our mission at Aspire Legal and my land trustee is to help people aspire to a better life. So one question I always ask all my guests before I let them go is, who is one person in your life who helped you aspire to a better life?
[00:35:57] Speaker A: That's a good question. If I have to narrow it down to one.
Well, I can't. I gotta just save my kids.
I've got four wonderful children. And though I've always aspired for different things, I didn't know exactly what, when or where or how it was going to happen. But every day with them is such a blessing, it makes me a better person and it makes me want to do great things and be someone that they can be proud of.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: Oh, that's beautiful. That's wonderful. And you're actually the first one who's ever said they're kids, so I like that. That's very nice. That's very nice. Thank you again for coming on today and explaining HOAS to our audience. It's been great talking to you. Great to see you again. It's been too long. And everybody out there. We're going to have Jeff's contact information down in the show notes as well as some of the organizations and other places that he mentioned, so you can go to the show notes and look those up if you ever need anything. And until the next time we meet everybody, trust this.
[00:37:00] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:37:02] Speaker B: Thank you.
Thanks for listening to this edition of Trust this. If you got something out of it, please press like and subscribe and give us a five star review to help us reach others who can benefit from this series. Until next time, keep aspiring to a better life.
